Thorton (Thornton) Junction: CSX/CN/GTW vs (UP/MoPac+CSX/L&N)/C&EI

(CRJ. Satellite, both routes are still double-tracked)
NorthAmericanInterlockings:  Fuller    Whipp 1977    Geletzke R. May 1989    Geletzke R. Jun 1989    Geletzke R. Feb 1988
Chicago and Northern Indiana Railroad Interlocking Towers (click the marker for more information)

Some references spell it "Thornton."

I learned of Thorton Junction on pp. 57-59 of Chicago & Eastern Illinois Railroad In Color by Edward M. DeRouin.

Bill LePinske posted
Grand Trunk Extra 392 just knocked down the green at Thornton Jct as it hi balls eastbound out of Elsdon yard to Battle Creek Mi. Somewhere in the late 70’s !
Bill LePinski posted again
Thornton Jct Owened and operated by the Grand Trunk Western RR the crossing for the MoPac, L&N, C&EI railroads …. 1980 South Holland Illinois
Bill LePinske posted
My first job at 17 years old senior in HS worked for the Grand Trunk Western RR I was the 3rd trick tower operator at Thornton Jct. This is where the GT and the C&EI MOPAC and L&N Crossed Just south of the Mopac's Yard Center Dolton, Illinois the tower was in South Holland Illinois.
Bill LePinski posted
This is Thornton Jct South Holland Illinois that is owned and operated by the Grand Trunk Western rr. I worked the graveyard shift 3rd trick tower operator 1972-1980 This is where the MoPac C&EI and L&N crossed the Grand Trunk Mainlines. I believe it was demolished in 1999 ? 

Ronald Boles posted
Chicago & Eastern Illinois Railroad at Thornton Junction Illinois 1967

Richard Haave: Notice tower has no outside stairway. Tower had two signal maintainers GTW maintained the electric parts (which included semaphores) and C&EI maintained the mechanical parts (rods, levers and bellcranks) which was both main line crossovers and switch into south end of Yard Center. The two single semaphores were GTW train order signals. They were placed opposite direction they governed for better visibility.

Kevin Piper posted
MP 3221 leads a UP coal train on the old C&EI at Thornton Junction in South Holland, IL, on 9-26-87. Thornton is the crossing of CN/GTW's Battle Creek main leading out of Chicago.

CSX plans to rebuild a connection in the southwest quadrant that will allow trains coming north on the joint line to head west on ex-GTW. Doing so allows easier access to Clearing Yard and CSX's Bedford Park intermodal terminal. It also provides an entrance to the west end of CSX's Barr Yard. [CRJ] (Judging from the Satellite image, if this has happened, it has been quite recent.)

Dan Tracy posted
Southbound L&N Family Lines SD40-2 rolls across the GTW at Thorton Jct IL in October of 82.

Ken Schmidt posted
With train #392 in tow, GTW 5833 highballs Thornton Junction in August 1985.

Andy Zukowski posted
Chicago & Eastern Illinois Railroad at Thornton Junction Illinois 1967

Richard Elleby: C&EI and MoPac....Great Stuff! I Miss those Days!

Pauly Zee: Still an important junction.

Larry Candilas commented on Andy's post

Afew years ( and a merger) later - July 1983 going SB

Charles Geletzke Jr. posted
On May 5, 1989, I was westbound on a GTW train approaching the former GTW (C&EI-MP) interlocking tower at Thornton Jct., Illinois. (C. H. Geletzke, Jr. photo)
Charles Geletzke Jr. also posted
Edward Kwiatkowski shared

Randy Bosma: The tower is boarded up; it must have been automated or converted to remote control.

Tim Shanahan shared

C.H. Geletzke Jr Photograph

Ken Schmidt posted
About to hit the diamond at Thornton Junction on the South Bend Sub, GTW 5830 is in charge of a train en route to the BRC on a dismal day in October of 1988.
Brad Ciesco Elsdon Sub
Ken Schmidt In 1988, it was the South Bend sub. I remember well when the Battle Creek dispatcher was giving out orders.
Brad Ciesco When did it change to the Elsdon Sub?
Ken Schmidt I am not rightly sure, but I recall it still called the S Bend Sub in 1990. And that is about the time they moved the dispatchers to Pontiac if I recall. Thomas Bowers would remember better than I.
Chuck Roth I thought it changed to Elsdon at Griffith.
Jeffrey Cwan In 3 short years the Trunk would be absorbed by the CN.

Mark Hinsdale posted

"Thornton Junction IL"

The engineer on Grand Trunk Western's premier merchandise train, eastbound #392, has just grabbed his orders from the delivery stanchion and is about to bang over the ex Chicago & Eastern Illinois main line, at Thornton Jct, within the Chicagoland suburb of South Holland IL. It's September, 1977, and by this time, the former C&EI artery is a jointly owned property of Louisville & Nashville and Missouri Pacific. #392, scheduled out of GTW's Elsdon Yard in the morning, will make a priority run, diagonally across Lower Michigan, and deliver its train to GTW parent Canadian National in Port Huron by midnight. September, 1977 photo by Mark Hinsdale

Mark Hinsdale shared

(new window, this one of a few videos of this junction. At 8:15 there are crane parts. Unfortunately, they are in gondolas instead of flatcars so part of the parts are hidden.)

14:42 video @ 0:50

Chicago Junction Kenwood Yard

(Satellite, north of the IHB route, which has been removed)
Chicago Junction was the nickname for the Chicago River & Indiana. Its predecessor was the 1880 Chicago & Indiana State Line Railway. Its successor was NYC, to the objection of the other railroads. Norfolk Southern got it when Conrail was split up.

I learned about this yard from a Facebook posting.
Mark Bilecki Sr. There was a small yard near 49th and California they maintained
Chuck Guzik Yep....it was about 4-5 tracks wide and the IHB worked the south side of the tracks and used a few Xovers at about California which was the east part of that lil yard. At this time, there were more tracks north in the weeds...

Bob Lalich commentd

It was called Kenwood Yard.

Mark Bilecki Sr. I think the IHB used to switch out Central Steel& Wire and CR&I did everything on the north side of the ROW . All this changed with the Orange Line construction and everything east of Leavitt was abandoned.
Chuck Guzik IHB had Central Steel ...still does, Inmont, Uaarco paper and one or two more.
Chuck Guzik It was an NYC Flexi van COFC/TOFC terminal as well. I lived adjacent to the panhandle trackage at 50th st. Dead Even with the semaphore signal. In the 1972-1976 period, there were long lines of NYC-PRR out of service railcars parked in there and on the North yard lead into 59th st yard.

Chuck Sperlak posted two images with the comment:

The 8444....

Indeed, it's CR&I's SW1 at their Kenwood Yard. This photo was taken in April 1972 by a friend of mine at 49th and Whipple on the southwest side of Chicago. 

The area between 47th and 49th Streets from California Ave. to St. Louis was saturated with numerous factories and of course many railroad sidings and spurs. A handful of industries was also east of California up to Western Ave.

Photo by Gib Allbach

Original 1958 map from my personal collection.

Chuck Guzik: saw this unit daily up there back them …. shoot fire coming up the ramp near western ave.

Bob Stanley: I got a ride in the cab of that unit back in '71. Worked as a shipping clerk at Chicago Railway Equipment Company (CRECO) 46th and Wolcott

In 1938, it already looks like the yard was significantly reduced. To this day, you can see diagonal buildings and parking lots (west and east) established by the former boundaries of this yard. Or is the curved track from Kedzie to Western an industrial spur where many industries from, probably the turn of the century, have been torn down?
Chuck Guzik Most of that ...at least in the 1970s when I roamed up there... was industrial lead. Just off of Western Av, there was a helluva grade that dropped down from the elevated track to service Budweiser, Cooks Chocolate (worlds Finest), Burton Spring, Illinois Brick and a few others. Many times, the switcher looked like a jet taking off with angle it came up the ramp. Most times in the heyday, it was in the middle with cars on each end because of reverse switches.
Chuck Guzik The crews up there usually were 4 man....2 switchmen/brakemen, A conductor and engineer. Ive seen on more than one occasion, where they had to go after a rolling car. There was a slight westward grade towards California and once in a while, a car wouldn't slow down or the Brakemen missed the hop on. Even though I should not have done it.....I rode an empty MEC Boxcar from Western to about California Ave when it was shoved.....on the opposite side of the engine obviously

1938 Aerial Photo from ILHAP, Kedzie on the left and Western on the right, California in the middle.

Prairie Central Railway (PACY), made with Conrail rejects

The same person, Mr. Burroughs, who formed the Prairie Trunk Railroad from a B&O branch that CSX did not want, formed the Prairie Central Railway from a Pennsy branch (Decatur-Paris) and a NYC/Big Four branch (Paris-Mt. Carmel), that Conrail did not want. The Big Four branch was part of the Egyptian Line. It sounds like Mr. Burroughs was a modern day robber baron.

Bill Edrington commented on a posting
Bill Edrington Attached is a page from the November/December 1984 Official Guide showing the lines operated by the Prairie Central and its sister company, Prairie Trunk, at that time. The USRA Final System Plan, which was the "bible" regarding which of the bankrupt railroads' lines would and would not be included in Conrail, identified both the former PRR between Paris and Peoria and the former NYC (Big Four) between Paris and Lawrenceville as being unprofitable surplus lines that would be operated by Conrail only if their operating losses were directly subsidized. The FSP granted Conrail trackage rights over the B&O from Lawrenceville to Vincennes and over the L&N (former C&EI) from Vincennes to Danville as an alternative route for southern Illinois coal traffic to the Chicago area. Illinois came through with a subsidy for the Paris-Decatur portion of the ex-PRR Peoria Secondary for an initial year, after which the line was operated for some years as the Wabash Valley Railroad, a subsidiary of Morrison-Knudsen Corp. The state also subsidized operation by Conrail of the Paris-Lawrenceville line until Conrail sold its lines south of Mt. Carmel to the Southern Railway in the early 1980s. Prairie Central was formed around this time to take over the Paris-Decatur operation, which Morrison-Knudsen had found to be unprofitable, and also ended up operating the portion of the former NYC between Paris and Mt. Carmel. Prairie Central did not last long. There was not enough traffic on either of its lines to support continued operation. The same was true with the Prairie Trunk's operation of the former B&O between Springfield and Shawneetown.
Bill Edrington I should have mentioned for clarity's sake that Conrail began operations on April 1, 1976. The state subsidy to Conrail for operating the Paris-Decatur line only lasted one year, after which the Wabash Valley operated it without subsidy until its parent company, Morrison-Knudsen, threw in the towel. Paris-Lawrenceville operation by Conrail was subsidized for several years until that line was no longer needed to handle coal traffic from south of Mt. Carmel. Prairie Central then operated the line all the way from Paris to Mt. Carmel for a short time, without state subsidy, but could not make a go of it.
Dave Ritter Years of operation for the PACY 1981 to 1984 and ended due the the embargo from the IC of trackage rites from Hervey City to Decatur for non-payment and a costly derailment at Lake City.

CN/IC Bridge over Kaskaskia River at New Athens, IL

(Bridge Hunter, no Historic Bridges Birds-Eye View; Satellite)

Steve Goaring shared his posting
East St. Louis - Coulterville local crossing the "old" Kaskaskia River bridge at New Athens, IL. February 1976 Steve Goaring photo.
John P. Kohlberg Hey, Steve Goaring, is this the same day/train when the "Oliver C. Joseph" was placed just ahead of the caboose?
Steve Goaring Why yes it is. I haven't scanned the rear shot I have yet. Robert Schramm was riding the car. Was suppose to be switched out at Belleville first but it was a facing point turnout so the crew took it all the way to Coulterville and back.
Curt Regensberger where is the new bridge south?
Steve Goaring North along side the old one when built.
Mike Sypult I know the IC purchased some Frisco GP7s in 1976 - if you look closely, there may be one in tow a couple cars back.
Steve Goaring That is the first KRPD (Kaskaskia Regional Port District) GP7 being delivered at Lenzburg. Painted in fresh FRISCO red/orange and white.

I don't understand the comments about old and new bridges. Looking at the Bridge Hunter photos shows that a lot of trees have grown between 1976 and now.


2004 Darren Snow Flickr Photo

I was surprised that ICG did not sell this branch during its 1980s fire sale of track routes. Then when I looked at the 2005 SPV Map, I saw quite a few coal mines along this route. The branch goes between DuQuoin, IL, on the mainline to St. Louis.

1924 CN/FVW/GBW/WC Bridge over Fox River in Green Bay, WI

(Bridge Hunter, no Historic Bridges, 3D Satellite, Street View (you can see part of the open span))

FVW is the Fox Valley & Western, and GBW is the Green Bay & Western.

(2021 Update: Sam Carlson's photo was of the downstream swing bridge, so it has been moved to C&NW Bridge.)

Ben Ziemendorf posted five photos with the comment: "A rare visitor to Green Bay- the Joseph L. Block arriving this morning."

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David B Seehafer commented on Ben's post
We'll be back next week

David B Seehafer commented on Ben's post

Troy Greatens commented on Ben's post
Thanks for sharing them Ben. I got one as you unloaded.
[This is Western Lime Corporation, just upstream from the bridge. We can see it in the background of Photo 5 above.]

Chuck Zentmeyer posted two photos with the comment: "A look up and downriver on the Fox River as the Block goes through the railroad bridge before the Graymont dock. These 2 photos give a decent perspective of what ship traffic to Green Bay deals with."

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Interlake Steamship Company posted
We love this shot of our M/V Kaye E. Barker when she was in Green Bay recently!
📸: Chuck Zentmeyer
Arni Foss: It was blowing quite a bit out of the NE she didn't want to go through very easy, but we made it.
[A comment indicates that it dropped off coal, not stone.]

2 of 4 photos posted Master Sergeant Media LLC with the comment: "The Alpena arrives in Green Bay, WI."

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Illinois Central 51st (47th) Street or Hyde Park Tower

3D Satellite, eastish (track) side

I saved some Google Map images because I understand the tower is gone now. Between Mark's 2007 images below and these 2015 images, the top story was removed.

This tower is also known as the IC's 47th Tower.

NorthAmericanInterlockings: no entry

Chicago and Northern Indiana Railroad Interlocking Towers (click the marker for more information)

D.W. Davidson Flickr

51st Street Tower Icon from 11th Place-67th Street link on Railroad Operating Information.

Oct 2015 Street View, northish side

Oct 2015 Street View, southish side

Mark Llanuza posted
The year 2007 IC 51st tower
Dennis DeBruler Sometime since 2007 they removed the top story. https://www.google.com/.../@41.8042127,-87.../data=!3m1!1e3 It seems that it would have been a lot cheaper to fix the roof, board up the windows, and take down the extra flight of stairs.

Steve Lewandowski posted
Mike Adduci 51st st tower. Noticed the handrailing on the bottom right corner of the photo that was on the second floor of the tower. And structure number is 624.
Chauncey Lawrence Just a little north of 51st and lakepark there is a electrical substation there now.

Mark Llanuza posted six photos with the comment: "Its the year 2007 at the old IC Hyde Park tower at 51st st."
I shared Mark's posting and David Daruszka provided me the details I needed to locate this tower:

Actually it was known as 47th Street Tower, although it was further south of the 47th Street Station and north of 51st Street. Approximately 50th Street and Lake Park Ave. Type that into search and look at the maps selection. You can see it in the aerial view if you zoom in.

1, Dave Foley Signal testman extraordinaire Mark Newman

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Mark Llanuza posted two photos with the comment: "Metra's Hyde Park tower the year 2007 former IC tower."

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David Daruszka commented on my share concerning a question about the difference between the 2015 Google images and Mark's 2007 images.
They removed the top story of the building. This is how it looked originally.

When the IC was electrified, a flyover connection to the NYC/Chicago Junction/Union Stock Yard and Transit Company was constructed. This simplified the junction enough that it eliminated the 43rd Street Tower and control was remoted to this tower.

Bob Lalich commented on a share
I believe that there was a power switch and signals for the CJ ramp track near 51st St tower. It is seen near the left side of this drawing.
[I'm glad Bob sees it because because this track diagram is too complicated for me to understand it.]

Mark Llanuza posted
The year 2007 IC 51st tower
Dennis DeBruler Sometime since 2007 they removed the top story. https://www.google.com/.../@41.8042127,-87.../data=!3m1!1e3 It seems that it would have been a lot cheaper to fix the roof, board up the windows, and take down the extra flight of stairs.

Mark commented on his posting
This is in the basement of this tower 51st street.

This is further south, but the discussion of track use applies to a long stretch of the route.

Steve Lewandowski posted
November 1971 "West Side of IC embankment north of 53rd Street" Southbound Amtrak James Whitcomb Riley.
Bill Edrington Rick La Fever - The Riley was still running on its original route at this time: IC from Central Station to Kankakee; then PC’s ex-NYC “Big Four” line from there all the way to Cincinnati. It wasn’t until later that track conditions on the Big Four via Lafayette got so bad that the train had to be rerouted. As I recall it was initially moved over to the ex-PRR to Indianapolis via Logansport; then back onto the Big Four to Cincinnati. Eventually it ended up on the old C&O of Indiana, running via Peru, Muncie and Richmond, because the north-south PC lines in Indiana were in such bad shape.
Matt McClure Rick La Fever Rode the JWR Indy to Chicago in June 1972. Big Four routing via Lafayette to Kankakee. Nearly nine hours; on the IC we flew. Only later did horrid track force it to Logansport, before being moved to the C&O of Indiana. Great article on the various routes in Trains Magazine c1974 "Whither the Riley."
Matt McClure Bill Edrington Between the routing on the EX-PRR and its move to the C&O of Indiana, Amtrak ran the Riley on the ex-PRR via Kokomo, Anderson, and New Castle on the route of the former PRR Union. After the move to the C&O the PRR was pulled up.

Dennis DeBruler This answers a question that has been on my mind:
Did intercity trains use IC's freight or commuter tracks?
It looks like they used the freight tracks.
Matt McClure Dennis DeBruler Yes, 2-3 most eastern tracks without catenary overhead. Same tracks Amtrak uses today.
Bob Lalich Dennis DeBruler - IC had 2 passenger tracks and 2 freight tracks through the entire Chicago terminal region - at least as far as Richton. Sometime after Amtrak, portions of the freight mains were removed. The old freight main tracks are still in place between Fordham and Kensington but I believe are now classified as secondary tracks. Hopefully someone can fill in more detail.
Dennis DeBruler Bob Lalich 2+2 makes sense. I know Rock Island, Pennsy and NYC also ran 2 passenger plus 2 freight through Chicago.
Lawrence Smith Bob Lalich I remember in Flossmoor in the 60s there were 2 commuter, 2 through pssgr and maybe 2, maybe 3, freight - but..those freight tracks were the beginning of the large yard N of Homewwood. No idea of what was S of Flossmoor.