(Google Lemon Aug 16, 2020: I added the above photo because it has better resolution than the photo below. I did that add with Google's new blogger software because after Sept 1 they will no longer let us use the legacy version. The caption was copied from the photo below. I then updated this post with the old photo still in the post to check the new URL's for a Google bug before deleting the old photo in case the URLs got corrupted. The good news is that the Google bug did not happen. The bad news is that the font for the new caption is smaller than the normal font for captions. But in the blogger edit window that I normally see, the fonts are the same size. I don't normally look at the public, published view because I have trusted the author's view. Now I'm faced with the question of how many other things that I have changed over the last few months with the new software look funky in the published view?)
|Jon Roma posted|
Map of the Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal circa 1935. Note that the Alton, which was part of the B&O corporate family at the time, is also included.
Dwayne Weber G&I.W.- what was that?
Dennis DeBruler It is C&IW which was the Chicago & Illinois Western
Joseph Claude Brookdale. That must have been by the US Steel South Works, near Buffalo Avenue, I think.
Dennis DeBruler It was B&O's first route in Chicago for its passenger trains. B&O used this route when it used IC's track to access Central Station.
The map also shows the route B&O used when they moved their trains to Grand Central Station: at Rock Island Jct it used Rock Island's track to get to the segment it built to connect Beverly Jct with 79th Jct so that it could use B&OCT to get to Grand Central Station. This second route is the one that used the "always up" Strauss trunnion bridge over the South Branch:
Dennis DeBruler Both B&O passenger routes used the now wrecked bridge over the Calumet River:
This map of the Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal Railroad is from the May 1923 edition of the Official Guide.
From the Blackhawk collection.Chuck Roth: This is an indication that the BOCT may have had commuter service to the south suburbs any timetables of those laying around?
David Daruszka: The B&OCT picked up the commuter service from the CTT. I don't think it lasted very long.
|David Daruszka -> RAILROAD HISTORY BUFFS OF ILLINOIS|
Terminal Railroad's 111th Street Station (today's B&OCT). As was common for the period, the station agent and his family lived in the second floor. The young girl out front was probably a family member. Note the laundry hanging on the line on the right side of the station.
The complexity of the corporate histories of the many terminal and industrial railroads that were built around Chicago has always hurt my head. The main reason for this posting is to record Bob's comment as another puzzle piece in putting together the puzzle of Chicago's railroad history.
|Richard Fiedler posted this B&OCT depot at 115th Street|
|From CSXT web site, but they since broke the link|
Skip reading the rest of this posting because I wrote it before I discovered Richard Parks' page! Today would have been easier if Google put that link on the first page instead of on the third page of the search results.
<update>Jan 2021 It is a good thing I didn't delete the following because I have discovered that the www.r2parks.net domain no longer exists!
Wikipedia indicates Wisconsin Central formed the Chicago & Great Western Railroad (C&GW) by 1886 to build a connection from its end-of-line in Forest Park into the city and to construct the Grand Central Station, which opened in Dec 1890. In June 1887, the Chicago & Calumet Terminal (C&CT) was formed by Northern Pacific Railroad to consolidate several terminal railroads in the Chicago area. In March 1890 NP bought the C&GW and other WC lines in Chicago to form the Chicago & Northern Pacific (C&NP). Since NP owned both C&CT and C&NP, it connected them with new construction and trackage rights. The 1893 Panic bankrupted the C&NP. In July, 1897, the new company Chicago Terminal Transfer Railroad (CTT) bought C&NP from Wisconsin Central. In May 1897, the CTT merged the C&CT. The B&O began using Grand Central in 1892 when a connection was made between the CTT and B&O at South Chicago. When the Pere Marquette was completed to Porter, IN in 1903, it also used the CTT into Grand Central. "On January 6, 1910 the Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal Railroad was created to purchase the CTT at foreclosure, giving B&O control of the both the terminal railway system, as well as Grand Central Station." But CTT must have been split and the eastern end was bought by someone else because a modern B&OCT map does not show a line running to South Chicago.
Portage County Historical Society also has some history concerning the C&CT and CTT.
From Industrial Chicago, Volume 4, I learned:
And the Annual Report, Volume 40 By Illinois Railroad and Warehouse Commission gives me some more facts to chew on:
Scott Griffith posted two images with the comment: "Chicago Northern Pacific , first time ever seeing a map of this."
John Pisciotto That was the cover company that helped build the altenheim sub and Grand Central Station. When during the Depression in the 1890s the Northern Pacific filed for bankruptcy they sold off the railroads that they had built in the Chicago area. The Baltimore and Ohio bought them at a fire-sale price. This became the core of what would become known as the Baltimore and Ohio Chicago terminal.
Bob Lalich After foreclosure proceedings, the C&NP was reorganized as the Chicago Terminal Transfer in 1897. The B&O purchased CTT in 1910 and reorganized it as the B&OCT.
|Bot Lalich commented on Scott's posting|
|Ean Kahn-Treras commented on Scott's posting|
I guess this map answers my own question. It was tough to tell definitively which streets the route north of and then the route south of the present day Altenhiem followed. This Chicago West Town's map clear that up quite well.
That jog along 19th has always looked suspicious in my walks through the neighborhood. I though THAT was a west town's right of way, but this discussion points towards it being the old CTT.
|Scott Griffith posted|
First CTT map i have ever seen.
Craig Holmberg North of B12 Forest Preserve Dr and Sunnyside is the route to Mayfair.
Bill Angus The piers for the Des Plaines River bridge were visible until recently.
Ean Kahn-Treras Hmmm. Looks to be some local industry driven railroad cutting thru Oak Park along Washington St. to the south of the northwestern but north of the route to forest park that parallels I290 even today. Quite a bit of interesting action going on in my neck of the woods actually. Berwyn, Oak Park and Forest Park have some railroad dinosaurs for sure.
Brian Morgan posted
Peter ZimmermannPeter and 1 other manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for Ghost Railroads of the midwest, west and south. Supposedly they graded the line from Franklin Park to Mayfair but it wasn't ever used for some reason. Interesting the at this time the Chicago Heights line only went as far as the junction in Harvey, what CSX now calls "CJ" Interlocking.
Brian Morgan This was at onetime the Milwaukee Road connection to their Indiana route to Terre Haute and Seymour, Indiana.
William Shapotkin I am aware that a line (built by WC (or CCT) was constructed from Franklin Park to Mayfair -- supposedly due to some argument over divisions. Although much of the ROW is now occupied by Forest Preserve Drive, the bridge abutlements at the Des Plaines River (south of Belmont Ave) are still standing, Last time I looked the ROW from Tower B12 was still visible and (while it was still in business) the hobby Shop in Franklin Park had a blueprint/map showing the layout at B12 with the Mayfair line in it. SUPPOSEDLY CTT operated psgr service from Grand Central to Dunning via Franklin Park. Charles Stats (in the 1950s) worked with a lady who claimed her mother commuted from somewhere near Blue Island to Dunning and transferred trains at Grand Central...and (upon questioning) insisted that her mom did NOT take the MILW out of CUS to do this! To-date no timetables of any such service have surfaced.
David Daruszka I believe the B&OCT still exists for various and sundry corporate reasons. We always had to call the B&OCT dispatchers when we ran that trackage. They were in Barr Yard, but they may have since been moved to Jacksonville. They tried that once and quickly brought them back to Barr.
Peter ZimmermannPeter and 1 other manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for Ghost Railroads of the midwest, west and south. More interesting to me to listen to when their further away but that's me, they are located in the Chicago Division center in Calumet City, IHB's dispatchers are also located there.
Todd Lewis Not for long... i hear ingalls hospital is taking over that building for clinics. The dispatchers may be moving to jax or to barr.
Todd Lewis Btw the B&OCT does still Exist, its still a terminal rd to interchange with connecting railroads. Im sure the SIRT still exists too, but thats probably more of a paper railroad for bookkeeping purposes.
|Bob Lalich posted, Facebook resolution|
This is the B&OCT page from the 1949 Official Guide. I am curious if any of you remember details regarding interchange with the B&O at Whiting. I presume that most of the cars would have been EB loads out of the mills and refineries of NW Indiana, and were picked up by B&O trains out of Robey St. Any information will be appreciated!
Thomas White B&O trains didn't pick up at Whiting or East Chicago. All the stuff out of Whiting and East Chicago went to Barr on a transfer and onto B&O trains from there. The other direction, the East Chicagos would generally go to Barr, but occasionally an Elmer would set them out at East Chicago if they were needed before they would get back to East Chicago from Barr.Bob Lalich What time frame was this Thomas White?Thomas White 60s-70s. Old heads I worked with never mentioned any other way. Even in days back to the 40s, they talked of B&O trains via Whiting being Jets and 97s for Forest Hill and Robey. Before pigs, Forest Hill was freight house traffic.Richard Brunke once upon a time, the one and only industry served by the B&O was Dundee Cement in South Chicago...those cars might have been considered "interchanged" but I have no other details, nor was I involved in anything other than the monthly switching settlement statement that charges the B&O for all their various switching obligations, and that was one of them !Crew Heimer By the 1980's when I was there, all cars came to Barr Yard and were added to road trains at that point. Once when a fast movement had been promised, Run 13 bought 30 loads of coil steel just in time to make the Willard train train. I would not have wanted to be the engineer on that train with 30 heavy loads on the rear end. Once we had a bunch of empty autoracks to move east that were placed at Each Chicago yard for pickup (perhaps from the nearby N&W interchange, perhaps for a C&O train to Grand Rapids and Detroit). It should never have been done - every street crossing in East Chicago was tied up way too long while the air test was made.For more information joint the B&OCT facebook group. There are old timers there that can tell you all. I was only there a few years.
|Bob Lalich commented on his post|
So judging by your answers, the Whiting interchange point mentioned in the OG page was likely established in the early days of CTT/B&OCT. This is just my speculation, but the expansion of Barr Yard may have played a role in changing operating practices, leading to the elimination of that interchange.There was a siding between Calumet Ave and 117th St, as seen in the attached track chart. What was it used for in later years?Thomas White There were also eastward and westward sidings at Indiana Harbor, left over from the days of slow trains diving to get out of the way of fast ones. With CTC East of Pine Jct, the sidings at Indiana Harbor became irrelevant for that purpose. The westward siding at CR would have built for the same purpose. However, freight trains that made it to CR didn't have to dive for a following train. I never experienced the Belt or the Rock holding one. The only ting the CR siding was used for when I was there was the CSL connection.
|Henry Freeman commented on Bob's post, cropped|
I have attached the B&OCT Interchange points in 1935 and 1954 (pre and post Barr Yard) from the pages of Form 6. The 1948 Form 6, which would have been the first one after Barr Yard was expanded, shows the same points as 1954. Both show interchange at Whiting with the Baltimore & Ohio (yes, that is an interchange), Chicago Short Line, Elgin, Joliet & Eastern, and the New York Central.